Who Is God?

[Darrell]

orange:

clearly we are too far apart in our thinking on this topic to find any common ground. we can't even agree on terminology. thus my argument for this thread ends here.

I'll sum up my position here by stating that I find the big bang point to be the instant in space-time for which we are unable to knowingly identify anything that might have preceded it. Whether it was made by a deity, creatures from another realm or via some natural process is for us pure speculation. Yet our concept of reality is a question dependant on knowing that which we seemingly cannot know.

If our "universe" was made by a deity, are we subjects of an all powerful God (obligated to his set of conditions and rules) or merely inhabitants of a child's ant farm or long forgotten science project? If made via another realm, to what purpose; and what is the commonality between realms? Or if by natural process, what scenario was in play that caused the big bang process which created our reality? Or might an eternity be in play via a kind of reality that bounces back and forth like a spring mass system, first contracting, then expanding, cycle after cycle with no end in sight?

It is unlikely that these questions will ever be answered by other than speculation. And this being the case, I see nothing that can be said about any God. Who is he? What is he? Is he or was he? Like I stated at the very beginning, first you need a definition for God. Since we lack that, there is virtually no intelligent way to describe who or what he is (or even if he is).

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by Darrell

orange:

clearly we are too far apart in our thinking on this topic to find any common ground. we can't even agree on terminology. thus my argument for this thread ends here.

I'll sum up my position here by stating that I find the big bang point to be the instant in space-time for which we are unable to knowingly identify anything that might have preceded it. Whether it was made by a deity, creatures from another realm or via some natural process is for us pure speculation. Yet our concept of reality is a question dependant on knowing that which we seemingly cannot know.

If our "universe" was made by a deity, are we subjects of an all powerful God (obligated to his set of conditions and rules) or merely inhabitants of a child's ant farm or long forgotten science project? If made via another realm, to what purpose; and what is the commonality between realms? Or if by natural process, what scenario was in play that caused the big bang process which created our reality? Or might an eternity be in play via a kind of reality that bounces back and forth like a spring mass system, first contracting, then expanding, cycle after cycle with no end in sight?

It is unlikely that these questions will ever be answered by other than speculation. And this being the case, I see nothing that can be said about any God. Who is he? What is he? Is he or was he? Like I stated at the very beginning, first you need a definition for God. Since we lack that, there is virtually no intelligent way to describe who or what he is (or even if he is).

Thanks for your input Darrell, see you in the other forums .

[dr wu23]

Originally Posted by Darrell

Let's look at your question from a scientific perspective. Can you find anything that MIGHT HAVE always existed? Perhaps energy strings (should they ever be shown to exist in the first place)? Or failing that, can you find anything that SEEMS older than the big bang? If you can find nothing that might have always existed, and nothing seemingly older than the big bang, then it would be a rather weak hypothesis to assume it possible.

But here's a second thought. Suppose that there is something that is outside of our space-time continuum that is older than the big bang, yet not eternal. Then it would still be possible for some entity, realm or some natural process to have created our "universe." Yet we would not have the problem of dealing with the "forever" concept. We simply move back the starting point to something that preceded us. Of course, we lose something in making this assumption. There is no way to look back (or outside) our space-time continuum (while remaining inside it) to learn anything about our beginnings prior to the big bang. Which leaves us right back where we started: NOT KNOWING.

Can't say I disagree with any of those ideas from a science position ; both are certainly possible ,but I was really looking at it from a philosophical or even metaphysical angle.
Maybe our minds, being finite biological hardware, are simply not equipped to comprehend a Reality with no beginning or end. We need concrete beginnings and ends to things because that's how we 'see' things from our point of view as finite humans.
I have always been agnostic for the most part and the idea that Reality 'just is' stems from eastern ideas where the Universe is cyclical and never ending with no beginning nor end and that fact that we cannot 'grok' that is due to our human nature.
It's just speculation on an ontological theme. I think it was mentioned along with many other theories in a book called The Mind Of God by Paul Davies. Davies leans to the idea that it's no accident that we are here and he even likens Reality/Universe to the mind of God as one big thought that is the ground of all being.
I remain agnostic...but fascinated by the various ideas out there.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mind_of_God

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by Nimue

I'm more of the judeo-christian mysticism ideology, god is not a man or even a being that we can look upon. It is more likened to an energy, that infuses all things. Nothing exists outside of it.

Blessings,
Nimue

I agree about infusion, but as our imagination, and daily struggle to survive as mortals come into play, our minds remake God in our own image. Imo divine infusion on Earth gets distributed UNEVENLY.

It's down to my last thoughts about who God is or might be. And they are about taking God/godness most 'personally'.


Gita:4.7–8

Whenever righteousness wanes and unrighteousness increases I send myself forth.

For the protection of the good and for the destruction of evil,
and for the establishment of righteousness,
I come into being age after age.


It's an idea from Hinduism where primary deity Vishnu (in holy writings) is saying he's leaving whatever place gods exist at and when things go bad on Earth he'll turn 'avatāra' (from Sankrit meaning: One who crosses over/comes down).

It is an ancient tradition about gods manifesting as human beings, referred to variously as Bodhidarma, Bodhisattva or (in Christianity) the Incarnation of Christ, who might be considered the avatar of YAHWEH.

Folks like this, Mother Theresa and Gandhi immediately jump into my mind, come very close to us, they inspire us as somehow 'higher' human beings, yet too as if God is now here. Avatars allow us to think of God as a Friend.


One can believe in avatars and/or live your life as one. Is this acceptable, Nimue?




orangekea

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by dr wu23

Dedicated to Orangekea......

"You and me are molded by some things well beyond our acknowledgement."

Thanks dr wu! I wonder if we could be "molded" in the sense we manifest other dimensions, or the life in them.

[dr wu23]

Originally Posted by orangekea

Thanks dr wu! I wonder if we could be "molded" in the sense we manifest other dimensions, or the life in them.

Who knows...?
We have been compared by some physicists to those 2 dimensional beings who lived in Flatland who could not comprehend 3 dimensional beings and reality so perhaps we are unable to see beyond our 3 main dimensions and there are worlds all around us.

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by Jurgen

For those interested...

The History Of Devil

Interesting doc, Jurgen. I can only agree that the modern Satan and his demons is a 'version' developed in the past few centuries. Older versions of a powerful entity who can cause chaos, disease and death are the Gods of the classical world, and rogue/deadly Angels (Sons of God) like the ones in Genesis 6 taking human wives.


orangekea

[judasisthepriest]

Originally Posted by orangekea

Don't forget the butter, Judas! You and me both experience the workings of the social masks. I am much the same, with different persona for family, children, pets, even a different persona (mask) for each friend. As you say, much of it is related to avoiding hurting other people's feelings. Honestly, I call it love at times, sensitivity and also there's manipulation involved from selfish/self-interested motives on my part.

I disagree with you on the moral analysis. Evolution (Natural Selection) has made us deceptive (Mask Factory is an inborn faculty) to survive a hostile environment. Deceptiveness therefore literally goes with the territory.

Now for the weird part (still going for moral aquittal!!): our true Self imo is not 'buried' or intentionally hidden beneath a hundred or so social masks.

It is actually following a different path, incarnating into our mom's womb before we are born, and returning to Greater Consciousness when we die (taking full Earth life experience with it). My position is that instead of hiding, our True Self/Spirit is recording/experiencing EVERYTHING during our lives. It expresses or manifests itself by way of the sum of our thoughts, words and actions during this life. (And all the masks you'll ever use merely constitutes one set of 'actions'.)

Simply: I do not think we ought to feel guilty over using social masks persé. (It is only wrong to use clever masks to harm or murder others.)


orangekea

just finished playing "air guitar"

This is a brief reply as my bed is calling me (nice names though!). I agree with your last statement about not feeling guilty over using social masks - we have no need to feel guilty as we have been conditioned to behave in this manner. Harm and murder - another topic for that! But back onto social masks or fear selves as Eric Gross says! He explains it perfectly and has an excellent blog!

Here is Eric on You Tube:-



Hope you enjoy!!!

[dr wu23]

I only listened to the first 6 minutes (I'll listen to the interview later..) but he's saying what all the eastern philosophers have been saying for a very long time, 3 of my modern favorites being Watts, Krishnamurti, and Ram Dass. Human beings are trapped in the agenda of the mind as Ram Dass used to call it and need/want to buy into all the mini dramas life gives us. Or as Krishnamurti used to say only by non attachment and Freedom From The Known will we ever be free.
Watts called it 'the taboo against knowing who we really are'.

Obviously Mr Gross has read all of these men and written his own book.

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by judasisthepriest

just finished playing "air guitar"

This is a brief reply as my bed is calling me (nice names though!). I agree with your last statement about not feeling guilty over using social masks - we have no need to feel guilty as we have been conditioned to behave in this manner. Harm and murder - another topic for that! But back onto social masks or fear selves as Eric Gross says! He explains it perfectly and has an excellent blog!

Here is Eric on You Tube:-



Hope you enjoy!!!

I spent quite some time listening to, relistening and stopping the embedded interview to contemplate mr. Gross' explanations, judasisthepriest.

I'm not as well read in eastern philosophy as Wu, my own background has been training with martial arts teachers who had a mostly practical version of eastern thought. But thinking it through Eric Gross has got 99% of it right , and I suppose I would give his book to read to anybody, to my kids, no worries. Good transformative stuff imo, thanks for adding.

Perhaps mere semantics, but I think he strayed in his use of modern psychological terms, especially 'Authentic Self' (imo fear-selves aren't inauthentic!). He also termed it essential self (better) and "presence"(much better), but at heart he was referring to Pure Spirit, the theoretically unaffected heavenly self originating with God/Heaven, who lives tens or hundreds of earthly lives in suffering, fear and wrongdoing, yet returns to Goodness/Godness as if never having left.

Another point where I differ (as an evolutionist) with you and Gross is about Social Masks (="fear-selves") originating from after birth conditioning, I think they are inborn machinery, DNA driven brain hardwiring.

I love the things he explains about Zen. I have meditated too, and found it healthy, peaceful and good for mental clarity.


orangekea