Stand Your Ground

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by Wilhelm

The 911 call where he admits that's he's chasing Martin, and the undisputable fact that he shot and killed him.

It's amazing that you need that explained to you. It's a matter of record.

Of course, you want to pretend that something else happened afterward, but you have absolutely no way of knowing that. All we know is that Zimmerman was chasing Trayvon, and Trayvon ended up dead.

Nonsesne "timelines" and guesses as to what direction people walked or ran in are all just made-up scenarios. I can make up a scenario too, that fits the "timeline" and has Zimmerman cutting off Trayvon, but I don't. I deal in only known facts.

Furthermore, you (and the weirdos you get this "timeline" and location ideas from) seem to completely neglect the fact that when you're being chased by a strange person (who may even be an armed, murderous lunatic, which turned out to be the case) you might not necessarily want to lead them directly to your home. I sure wouldn't run straight to my front door. I'd make sure I wasn't still being followed so as to not inadvertently reveal the whereabouts of my domicile.

Your scenario doesn't take such a thing into account, nor does it take many things into account, it's just a make-believe scenario in how you can turn a crazed aggressor who murdered a kid into a victim, and the victim into the aggressor, which is disgusting and despicable.

Also, you keep referring to Zimmermans "duties" as "watch captain."

He had no "duties" and he was not a member of any recognized "Neighborhood Watch" group. It's just more make-believe.

Here's a statement from the actual "Neighborhood Watch" organization:

http://www.usaonwatch.org/resource/march152012.aspx

The above isn't demonstrating knowledge (that's what I ask you, you claim you KNOW) of how Zimmerman chased down Martin, and then shot him, but a disjointed and incoherent theory. There be holes here.

Disjointed: Zimmerman was on the phone with police dispatch when he gave chase, we hear elevated breathing, louder clicks/bangs for 32 seconds marking his fast pursuit, until after dispatch instructs to stand down, and things quit down. Logically Zimmerman stopped running, and Martin still was moving away. The call continues, and only after it ends a timeline of about 45 seconds to at most 2 minutes begins (not fact, just online media analysis) at the end of which Marting is fatally shot. Both of us know about the chase during the 911 call, Wilhelm, and about the gunshot. But you have demonstrated no knowledge of what happened between the 911 call and the shooting. A hole you fill with guesswork.

To incoherence then: Your straightforward Chase & Shoot-scenario is the prosecution version of the two main theories. The other is the defense timeline claiming the men relatively moved back and forth in more complex ways. Both theories may explain the hole left between 911 call and the final shot. Both may fit the facts.

But you 'know' Chase & Shoot is factual. Why? Because you prefer it? Would you say that you are never wrong about anything? I think you have confused strong belief with logic.

You call my reasoned and factbased defense of Zimmerman "disgusting and dispicable". But wouldn't Zimmerman, if innocent, be the victim of those accusing him of being a racist murderer? And wouldn't Martin, if he suckerpunched and took down the Watch Captain, be an aggressor? By the same reckoning I could call your characterization of Zimmerman as "crazed aggressor who murdered a kid" highly prejudiced and underinformed! The fact of the matter is that he's not a murderer, but a defendent standing accused of 2nd degree murder, and as such entitled to Presumption of Innocence. (Perhaps you prefer to skip the trial stage entirely, and get round to lynching the guy right away? Just asking !!)

Zimmerman was appointed Watch Captain by the The Retreat's Home Owner's Association, along with other volunteers. Groups like these (apparently) in the US may join a police sponsored oversight organization, however this is not required. (Maybe now the laws will be tightened, ensuring nationwide Neighborhood Watch standards and training.)

Simply: you think you know stuff, but actually you believe them strongly (and overlook the difference).


orangekea

[Wilhelm]

Originally Posted by orangekea

Simply: you think you know stuff, but actually you believe them strongly (and overlook the difference).

Wrong again. And your post above demonstrates it.

The problem is that you seem to have a habit of gleaning things from my posts which aren't there. This isn't the first time you've done it (it's not even the first time you've done it in this thread) and I'm sure it won't be the last.

I never claimed to know what happened between the end of the 911 call, and the gun being fired. I simply pointed out that you don't, nor does anyone else, and when you come up with elaborate timelines coupled with maps of how the ended up in a location, it completely ignores that there are literally thousands of other possibilities.

What I do know, however, is that Martin's body was found far from Zimmerman's truck, there is no evidence to indicate Zimmerman tried to retreat, and who hit first doesn't magically change the fact that Zimmerman was the aggressor.

Zimmerman was armed, followed him in his truck, and chased after him on foot. Zimmerman is always the aggressor, not matter what happens afterward. Even if we had video evidence of Zimmerman running away, and 100 witnesses agreeing with it, and Trayvon Martin chased him down and started battering him - under the law, Zimmerman would still be the aggressor, and under the SYG law, a different section applies to him, with different responsibilities.

And I get my assessment of Zimmerman as a crazed lunatic murderer from his extensive history of calling 911 whenever he saw a pot hole in the street, whenever he saw black kids around, along with many other odd reasons, his history of violence from his arrest for assaulting a police officer, his ex-wife accusing him of domestic violence, and his co-workers pretty much calling him a hot head, and the fact that he stalked and menaced a kid in his truck for the crime of walking down the street, then got out, ran after him, and shot him dead. He is what he is.

[Jurgen]

I can't for the life of me understand how some people think. I can only come to one conclusion... Zimmerman should be in jail for this.

Lets not talk about who threw the first punch or drew first blood. It's not that important, in my book that is...

Someone sees a "suspecious" guy walking down the street.

How one can make this determination by how somebody looks or the way someone walks is beyond me but ok...

Next he starts to follow this person by this conviction, not a suspecion but a conviction, for he is sure this person is up to no good which is purely based on anxiety and fear... paranoia.

A confrontation follows and the one being followed ends up dead!

This is where Zimmerman is responsible for the whole thing imo... one can never play the self defence card when you line up the facts which lead up to the shooting itself no matter the circumstances at that shooting which we know little about.
Maybe Zimmerman was afraid of his life after the fight but the facts leading to that point should at least place him in the "responsible" box.

[Carol Nistri]

I think Zimmerman is as gulity as heck,thats why he went into hiding,he never dreamt that an entire community would demand his head,but thats exactly what happend.

(Wilhelm,do you have a link to Zimmermans past behaivors? Id love to read it.)

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by Wilhelm

Wrong again. And your post above demonstrates it.

The problem is that you seem to have a habit of gleaning things from my posts which aren't there. This isn't the first time you've done it (it's not even the first time you've done it in this thread) and I'm sure it won't be the last.

I never claimed to know what happened between the end of the 911 call, and the gun being fired. I simply pointed out that you don't, nor does anyone else, and when you come up with elaborate timelines coupled with maps of how the ended up in a location, it completely ignores that there are literally thousands of other possibilities.

I asked you (now a second time) how you know for a fact how Zimmerman chased down Martin, because this is your express claim. Your denial (of your claim) falls short of truthfulness, as shown by your statement of fact:

Originally Posted by Wilhelm

the known fact is that Zimmerman chased down Trayvon Martin and murdered him.

...although your revised position seems to be that NOBODY (you are a body, right, Wilhelm?) knows what transpired in the 45-120 seconds between end of Zimmerman's 911 call and the fatal shot. So nobody (in you new version) knows what happened afterwards phoning police dispatch, until Zimmerman fired his gun, so now you admit to not having knowledge of a continuous chase, or 'chasing down', merely the brief sprint while talking to police dispatch. You admit then that you DON'T know that Zimmerman chased down Martin, it is not fact (glad we cleared this up !).

Originally Posted by Wilhelm

What I do know, however, is that Martin's body was found far from Zimmerman's truck, there is no evidence to indicate Zimmerman tried to retreat, and who hit first doesn't magically change the fact that Zimmerman was the aggressor.

Zimmerman was armed, followed him in his truck, and chased after him on foot. Zimmerman is always the aggressor, not matter what happens afterward. Even if we had video evidence of Zimmerman running away, and 100 witnesses agreeing with it, and Trayvon Martin chased him down and started battering him - under the law, Zimmerman would still be the aggressor, and under the SYG law, a different section applies to him, with different responsibilities.

The absolute distance between Martin's body and the SUV within a Retreat Circle View walkway is irrelevant to the direction the men were walking and how they interacted. And I already explained the one vital exception to Zimmerman being an aggressor is if he were WALKING AWAY from Trayvon, in the direction of his SUV. To say that even if Trayvon had chased Zimmerman down (and this is the contention) he was 'defending' himself is perfectly ludicrous and has no basis in law anywhere, certainly not Florida USA!! (And like you admitted, not anyone knows how these two men moved relative to each other in the timelapse between Zimmerman's 911 and shooting.)

Originally Posted by Wilhelm

And I get my assessment of Zimmerman as a crazed lunatic murderer from his extensive history of calling 911 whenever he saw a pot hole in the street, whenever he saw black kids around, along with many other odd reasons, his history of violence from his arrest for assaulting a police officer, his ex-wife accusing him of domestic violence, and his co-workers pretty much calling him a hot head,

Irrelevant. All that matters is whether he may use the affirmative defense of Stand Your Ground. For this we must establish if indeed Trayvon Martin was beating him up, so he could reasonably believe himself under imminent threat of serious injury or death.

Originally Posted by Wilhelm

and the fact that he stalked and menaced a kid in his truck for the crime of walking down the street, then got out, ran after him, and shot him dead. He is what he is.

And if he was walking away at the time of the confrontation, with Martin sneaking up behind, it is not a fact.


orangekea

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by Carol Nistri

I think Zimmerman is as gulity as heck,thats why he went into hiding,he never dreamt that an entire community would demand his head,but thats exactly what happend.

(Wilhelm,do you have a link to Zimmermans past behaivors? Id love to read it.)

There wasn't a warrant for his arrest, Carol, so I think he was hiding because there was a sizeable bounty on his head. (I vaguely remember 10,000$ for his "capture".) One home where he was mistakenly thought to live was shot up, as well as a police cruiser protecting his parents' house.

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by Jurgen

I can't for the life of me understand how some people think. I can only come to one conclusion... Zimmerman should be in jail for this.

Lets not talk about who threw the first punch or drew first blood. It's not that important, in my book that is...

Someone sees a "suspecious" guy walking down the street.

How one can make this determination by how somebody looks or the way someone walks is beyond me but ok...

Next he starts to follow this person by this conviction, not a suspecion but a conviction, for he is sure this person is up to no good which is purely based on anxiety and fear... paranoia.

A confrontation follows and the one being followed ends up dead!

This is where Zimmerman is responsible for the whole thing imo... one can never play the self defence card when you line up the facts which lead up to the shooting itself no matter the circumstances at that shooting which we know little about.
Maybe Zimmerman was afraid of his life after the fight but the facts leading to that point should at least place him in the "responsible" box.

Jurgen, during trial we can expect defense attorney O'Mara to contend that prior to the altercation and fatal shot, Trayvon Martin was following Zimmerman. This changes the dynamics, and explains why Zimmerman felt he was under threat and forced to defend himself.

I agree he is responsible for all his actions, including PULLING THE TRIGGER. However he would not be responsible for decisions made or a suckerpunch by Trayvon. If justifyable self-defense can be shown, he is not guilty of 2nd degree murder imo.


orangekea

[Darrell]

I think that nearly everyone here is working from the wrong premise, as is the news media. What really matters is what were the exact circumstances at the instant the gun was fired that killed Martin. If Martin was atop Zimmerman (as Zimmerman claims), beating him with punches and head banging, and if during this experience Zimmerman felt in fear of his life, then Zimmerman was within his rights to use any means necessary to stand his ground. This includes shooting Martin.

If the prosecutor is unable to disprove this exact scenario at the instant of the gunshot, nothing else will matter. Florida law must acquit Zimmerman of any murder charge. How things got to that stage will not matter.

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by Darrell

I think that nearly everyone here is working from the wrong premise, as is the news media. What really matters is what were the exact circumstances at the instant the gun was fired that killed Martin. If Martin was atop Zimmerman (as Zimmerman claims), beating him with punches and head banging, and if during this experience Zimmerman felt in fear of his life, then Zimmerman was within his rights to use any means necessary to stand his ground. This includes shooting Martin.

If the prosecutor is unable to disprove this exact scenario at the instant of the gunshot, nothing else will matter. Florida law must acquit Zimmerman of any murder charge. How things got to that stage will not matter.

What you describe is letter of the law, and whatever one feels about Stand Your Ground all that should matter in a country of laws. (No judge ought to be influenced by the size of a demonstration, or threats of large scale riots.)

What I'm wondering about, and just do not know (due to US and Floridan legal fineries), is whether the prosecutor may be able to work around this, use loopholes, whether civil rights violations will come into play (charges of racist profiling), or whether it is possible to CHEAT in a United States courtroom.


orangekea

[Wilhelm]

Originally Posted by orangekea

I asked you (now a second time) how you know for a fact how Zimmerman chased down Martin, because this is your express claim. Your denial (of your claim) falls short of truthfulness, as shown by your statement of fact:



...although your revised position seems to be that NOBODY (you are a body, right, Wilhelm?) knows what transpired in the 45-120 seconds between end of Zimmerman's 911 call and the fatal shot. So nobody (in you new version) knows what happened afterwards phoning police dispatch, until Zimmerman fired his gun, so now you admit to not having knowledge of a continuous chase, or 'chasing down', merely the brief sprint while talking to police dispatch. You admit then that you DON'T know that Zimmerman chased down Martin, it is not fact (glad we cleared this up !).

Of course it's a fact. Your extreme difficulty with differentiating between fact and fantasy is your problem, not mine.

Once again, which I predicted, you take things from my comments that aren't there. Zimmerman chased him down, and then shot and killed him.

You, for some reason, think that it wasn't a "continuous" chase, and you have no reason to believe such a thing other than taking the word of the killer for it. Stop trying to twist my words because you're unable to argue against reality.

Zimmerman chased down and murdered Martin. Fact.

Originally Posted by orangekea

The absolute distance between Martin's body and the SUV within a Retreat Circle View walkway is irrelevant to the direction the men were walking and how they interacted. And I already explained the one vital exception to Zimmerman being an aggressor is if he were WALKING AWAY from Trayvon, in the direction of his SUV. To say that even if Trayvon had chased Zimmerman down (and this is the contention) he was 'defending' himself is perfectly ludicrous and has no basis in law anywhere, certainly not Florida USA!! (And like you admitted, not anyone knows how these two men moved relative to each other in the timelapse between Zimmerman's 911 and shooting.)

Walking away doesn't make him cease to be the aggressor. maybe if you actually read and understood the SYG law, that fact would dawn on you.

In the section on the rights of the aggressor, it specifically mentioning retreating, and it doesn't mention any change to non-aggressor status after retreating.

Zimmerman chased him down in his car, and on foot. He is always the aggressor. Nothing changes that fact.



Your inability to understand these things has no bearing on the case.

I still say you're trolling because there is no way this could possibly be so difficult for you.