Stand Your Ground

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by Darrell

It would seem to me that these injuries were not self inflicted and that they constitute tangible evidence of body trauma. Given myself to experience these injuries at the hand of another in any situation, regardless of circumstances prior to the altercation, I would think myself in need of immediate rescue as the obvious loser of the battle. And were there no immediate rescue apparent, I would be in fear for my life and try anything and everything that might improve my chances of survival (gun, knife, night stick, biting or whatever was available). Thus I continue to think that there is no case for murder. To me it is an obvious case of self defence manslaughter.

What bothers me most about this case is the "racial" overtones of the reacting populace and the political implications of charging the defendant. Were this identical event to have happened in the NY bronx between two guys of same ethnicity, it probably wouldn't have even made the news.

I totally agree, Darrell, this type of tangible evidence coming out (another excerpt quoted below) to me indicates that you and me both, as well as many others have engaged in a just defense for George Zimmerman.

He's not 'righteous' like Noah, or Mother Theresa, but that is not necessary today. To act within the law (of the US and his state), and within morality as far as he was able, is plenty, and that is where we find Zimmerman. Guy tried to keep his neighborhood safe, and when getting the crud beaten out of him, shot his assailant in self-defense, granting him SYG appeal.


"WFTV.com reports that a medical examiner found two injuries on Martin’s body: the fatal gunshot wound to the chest and broken skin on his knuckles."


Somebody explain to me how one gets broken skin on knuckles...




orangekea

[Darrell]

Originally Posted by orangekea

I totally agree, Darrell, this type of tangible evidence coming out (another excerpt quoted below) to me indicates that you and me both, as well as many others have engaged in a just defense for George Zimmerman.

He's not 'righteous' like Noah, or Mother Theresa, but that is not necessary today. To act within the law (of the US and his state), and within morality as far as he was able, is plenty, and that is where we find Zimmerman. Guy tried to keep his neighborhood safe, and when getting the crud beaten out of him, shot his assailant in self-defense, granting him SYG appeal.


"WFTV.com reports that a medical examiner found two injuries on Martin’s body: the fatal gunshot wound to the chest and broken skin on his knuckles."


Somebody explain to me how one gets broken skin on knuckles...




orangekea

couldn't agree more.

btw, don't you just wonder how this would have played out had the lethal weapon been a knife or a karate blow (to the neck or eyes or heart) instead of a gun? I have to believe that defensive gun use paranoia is an underlying issue in this case (in the minds of those favoring punishing Zimmerman).

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by Darrell

couldn't agree more.

btw, don't you just wonder how this would have played out had the lethal weapon been a knife or a karate blow (to the neck or eyes or heart) instead of a gun? I have to believe that defensive gun use paranoia is an underlying issue in this case (in the minds of those favoring punishing Zimmerman).

I tend to view the mostly online and inmedia character assassination of Zimmerman (not to mention a Black Panther $10,000 reward for his "capture") as 95% malevolence, 5% assorted fears, mistrust and disconnect with Sanford authorities handling/investigating the case. Shooting Trayvon Martin to death (just like mr. Zimmerman theoretically using a knife) before all else fit into a deliberate effort to subsequently AVENGE this young man's killing. It is how I explain the misleading photos, repeatedly calling Trayvon a 'child', rumors about racist motives of Zimmerman and Sanford Police/Justice Dep, calling George Zimmerman white (initially), psychologically imbalanced, and the mythical relentless pursuit, followed by confronting and shooting Martin which has become the official Prosecution Theory, and the bizarre denial/criticism of the Stand Your Ground statute (I could go on!).

Darrell, I have thought about whether solid martial arts training would have made a difference for George Zimmerman. In a way, absolutely, however not by him using a deadly karate blow to fend off fit/agile young pugilist Trayvon Martin, but BY NOT GETTING OUT HIS CAR BY HIS LONESOME to begin with!! The only way for a neighborhood watch to be safe, to contact or hold (for police) crime suspects, to deter crime and give confidence to residents is to hit the streets as a team (5-10 members), and to have trained together extensively, preferably with a police trainer. (And imo without guns or other weapons.)


orangekea

[Miss Deetective]

The main problem I have with this case is that Zimmerman did NOT follow instructions and continued to give chase.
He did not see Martin breaking into a house or mugging someone....he did not see him do anything other than walk across the lawn wearing a hoodie....none of which is a crime!!!
Zimmerman could have simply called it in and had a deputy come investigate and find out if Martin had a right to be there or not.
Imo, the only job of a neighborhood watch is to keep an eye out and report any suspicious activity to the proper authorities.....nothing more. Zimmerman chose to take it beyond that and the result was a horrible tragedy. That is why vigilante justice never works.

[Darrell]

Originally Posted by Miss Deetective

The main problem I have with this case is that Zimmerman did NOT follow instructions and continued to give chase.
He did not see Martin breaking into a house or mugging someone....he did not see him do anything other than walk across the lawn wearing a hoodie....none of which is a crime!!!
Zimmerman could have simply called it in and had a deputy come investigate and find out if Martin had a right to be there or not.
Imo, the only job of a neighborhood watch is to keep an eye out and report any suspicious activity to the proper authorities.....nothing more. Zimmerman chose to take it beyond that and the result was a horrible tragedy. That is why vigilante justice never works.

True, he should have avoided direct confrontation -- especially alone. But, I'm not sure that Zimmerman's bad judgement should pull a murder charge. Remember that there are laws on the books against manslaughter too. I feel that he is guilty of that. It's not like he defended his home from a potentially brutal home invasion. His scenario was somewhat too neutral for a 100% self defense claim.

This was simply a case where a fight occurred that went too far. I feel that Zimmerman will have to establish his case as self defense without intent to kill in order to get off without punishment. Were I prosecuting him, I would point out that once the gun came into play, it's threat alone should have been enough to end the fight. To get around that, Zimmerman would have to establish that there was a struggle for the gun and in the struggle the gun went off, ACCIDENTALLY killing Trayvon.

That being said, I do feel that sadly, vigilante type neighborhood defense groups are becoming a necessity if one wishes to be safe on the streets and in the home. We can't afford to have police everywhere they are needed; and we have reached the stage where there are simply too many bad guys for towns to control. And the bad guys are good are always being where the police are not. So neighborhoods need to be able to protect themsleves while calling the police in when possible. Either way, there will be people harmed. The basic question is who would you rather see hurt, the gangsters or the innocent citizens living life according to the rules of society?

Personally, when I hear someone say: "take back our streets!" I say "amen." (whatever it takes ...)

[Miss Deetective]

Originally Posted by Darrell

True, he should have avoided direct confrontation -- especially alone. But, I'm not sure that Zimmerman's bad judgement should pull a murder charge. Remember that there are laws on the books against manslaughter too. I feel that he is guilty of that. It's not like he defended his home from a potentially brutal home invasion. His scenario was somewhat too neutral for a 100% self defense claim.

This was simply a case where a fight occurred that went too far. I feel that Zimmerman will have to establish his case as self defense without intent to kill in order to get off without punishment. Were I prosecuting him, I would point out that once the gun came into play, it's threat alone should have been enough to end the fight. To get around that, Zimmerman would have to establish that there was a struggle for the gun and in the struggle the gun went off, ACCIDENTALLY killing Trayvor.

That being said, I do feel that sadly, vigilante type neighborhood defense groups are becoming a necessity if one wishes to be safe on the streets and in the home. We can't afford to have police everywhere they are needed; and we have reached the stage where there are simply too many bad guys for towns to control. And the bad guys are good are always being where the police are not. So neighborhoods need to be able to protect themsleves while calling the police in when possible. Either way, there will be people harmed. The basic question is who would you rather see hurt, the gangsters or the innocent citizens living life according to the rules of society?
I just read earlier that Martin was shot in the heart at about 18 inches away...that is very close range.

Imo, we have not evolved enough for vigilante type neighborhood defense groups. Too many would simply use that as a way to eliminate people they are prejudiced against or just plain don't like!!

Personally, when I hear someone say: "take back our streets!" I say "amen." (whatever it takes ...)

I would not prosecute Zimmerman on a murder one charge...but neither was it an accident!!! At this point in the case we do not know if Zimmerman made threats to Martin or said anything that caused him to react the way he (Martin) did. Zimmerman would not have feared for HIS life if he had not pursued Martin instead of letting the police do their job that night. Imo, both of them reacted badly but Zimmerman was still the instigator.

[Darrell]

Originally Posted by Miss Deetective

I would not prosecute Zimmerman on a murder one charge...but neither was it an accident!!! At this point in the case we do not know if Zimmerman made threats to Martin or said anything that caused him to react the way he (Martin) did. Zimmerman would not have feared for HIS life if he had not pursued Martin instead of letting the police do their job that night. Imo, both of them reacted badly but Zimmerman was still the instigator.

You have assumed many facts not in evidence. Perhaps you should sit back and wait for the trial before rendering judgement? BTW, the current charge is murder two (not murder one).

In point of fact, only Zimmerman knows the details of the confrontation -- not you, not me, not anyone else. We don't know what exactly Zimmerman did when told to stay clear by the 911 operator. Nor do we know exactly what Trayvon did during that same time period. It is up to the court to try to piece this set of circumstances together in a way that makes sense and jibes with the evidence. This is not a time for outsiders to rush to judgement.

[DD2011]

Bottom line --- Had Zimmerman stayed in his vehicle until law enforcement arrived, he would not have been attacked and Martin would be alive. Martin was standing his ground from someone who was chasing and confronting him, and Zimmerman killed him for it. IF anyone is to be in the wrong, it's Zimmerman. Neighborhood watchmen shouldn't be chasing into confrontation anyone walking down the street.

[Darrell]

Originally Posted by DD2011

Bottom line --- Had Zimmerman stayed in his vehicle until law enforcement arrived, he would not have been attacked and Martin would be alive. Martin was standing his ground from someone who was chasing and confronting him, and Zimmerman killed him for it. IF anyone is to be in the wrong, it's Zimmerman. Neighborhood watchmen shouldn't be chasing into confrontation anyone walking down the street.

You don't know that either. You are assuming that Martin didn't or wouldn't come back and attack Zimmerman in his car. We really don't know who attacked whom. You are rushing to judgement based on your own assumptions, not on facts based on evidence.

And as a side comment ...
I still remember the riots in Watts, where an unfortunate (white) truck driver happened to drive into the area at the wrong time and several black youths caused the driver to stop by blocking his path; then they dragged him out of his cab and beat him mercilessly. This was shown live on tv as it happened; and I watched in total disbelief. With this in mind, it isn't very hard for me to conceive of the possibility that Trayvon was pissed that Zimmerman had followed him through the neighborhood and went after Zimmerman for doing so. If so, then Zimmerman in his car or out of his car might not matter much. It certainly didn't help that trucker in Watts to be in his truck.

[DD2011]

Originally Posted by Darrell

You don't know that either. You are assuming that Martin didn't or wouldn't come back and attack Zimmerman in his car. We really don't know who attacked whom. You are rushing to judgement based on your own assumptions, not on facts based on evidence.

And as a side comment ...
I still remember the riots in Watts, where an unfortunate (white) truck driver happened to drive into the area at the wrong time and several black youths caused the driver to stop by blocking his path; then they dragged him out of his cab and beat him mercilessly. This was shown live on tv as it happened; and I watched in total disbelief. With this in mind, it isn't very hard for me to conceive of the possibility that Trayvon was pissed that Zimmerman had followed him through the neighborhood and went after Zimmerman for doing so. If so, then Zimmerman in his car or out of his car might not matter much. It certainly didn't help that trucker in Watts to be in his truck.

Considering Martin's phone conversation and the other evidence as it's been presented, yes I do know that he would not have charged Zimmerman if he was sitting in his car. The boy was out for a store run and minding his own business -- he was not out to attack people in his neighborhood or be out with a gang who's trying to run the show. Bottom line, Martin would have continued on his way home from the store had their been no confrontation. Zimmerman instigated the entire situation -- period.