On SA Angela Corey's Watch

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by DD2011

Antrik, probably because it's unlikely that the majority of us could protest in the streets of Afghanistan lol....no wait, isn't the soldier being tried??

It's simple, what Zimmerman did is not "standing your ground"....it is chasing an unprovoking person into confrontation and shooting them. Trayvon was probably very scared not knowing who was chasing him and for what reasons, and it's probably very likely he did try to defend himself, which caused the injuries to Zimmerman. If anyone was standing their ground, sounds to me like it was more Trayvon defending himself. It's unfortunate that Zimmerman had a bit of charge in his emotions with the duties he was supposed to be upholding - he shouldn't have chased, confronted, or pulled the trigger. It very much looks like someone who truly was trying to do good, but out of adrenaline ended up doing something very bad instead. What a tragedy for everyone close to this.

Florida's SYG, for better or worse, is an affirmative defense (once accepted it rules out the commission of a crime) one APPEALS to, if having used deadly force in self-defense, DD2011. (Of course Zimmerman did just that, the reason why police on Februari 26 were prevented by said SYG law to arrest him!)

Prosecutor Angela Corey intends to strip him of this legal protection, using (at least) one witness, Martin's girlfriend as earwitness, who testifies having heard on the phone all that transpired for 7:12 minutes until the fatal shot. Martin's friend's account does suggest Zimmerman continually chased/followed Martin until a confrontation took place, with Zimmerman asking what business Trayvon Martin had on Retreat grounds, followed by a shoving match and (after phone went dead) the fatal shot. There are problems with this strategy: girlfriend is one of several earwitnesses, who say what they HEARD and then add guesses as to what it meant. (Folks were too afraid to step out, or even stay at a window, at the sound of a fight/argument on the street!) Zimmerman's lawyer will do his damnedest to get most of such testimony thrown out as 'hearsay'.

Corey's problem: proving Zimmerman continually chased Martin. (Just saying he did again and again does not constitute proof in a court of law.)


orangekea

[DD2011]

Originally Posted by orangekea

Florida's SYG, for better or worse, is an affirmative defense (once accepted it rules out the commission of a crime) one APPEALS to, if having used deadly force in self-defense, DD2011. (Of course Zimmerman did just that, the reason why police on Februari 26 were prevented by said SYG law to arrest him!)

Prosecutor Angela Corey intends to strip him of this legal protection, using (at least) one witness, Martin's girlfriend as earwitness, who testifies having heard on the phone all that transpired for 7:12 minutes until the fatal shot. Martin's friend's account does suggest Zimmerman continually chased/followed Martin until a confrontation took place, with Zimmerman asking what business Trayvon Martin had on Retreat grounds, followed by a shoving match and (after phone went dead) the fatal shot. There are problems with this strategy: girlfriend is one of several earwitnesses, who say what they HEARD and then add guesses as to what it meant. (Folks were too afraid to step out, or even stay at a window, at the sound of a fight/argument on the street!) Zimmerman's lawyer will do his damnedest to get most of such testimony thrown out as 'hearsay'.

Corey's problem: proving Zimmerman continually chased Martin. (Just saying he did again and again does not constitute proof in a court of law.)


orangekea

Yes Orange, I've seen the story...it's still very simple and clear --
Zimmerman fully admits on the 911 tape recording that he's chasing Martin....911's response...don't do that....but he obviously still did if he reached him to ask why was he there. Is SYG is chasing someone down and shooting them after they attack you for chasing them down? Zimmerman completely instigated the confrontation.

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by DD2011

Yes Orange, I've seen the story...it's still very simple and clear --
Zimmerman fully admits on the 911 tape recording that he's chasing Martin....911's response...don't do that....but he obviously still did if he reached him to ask why was he there. Is SYG is chasing someone down and shooting them after they attack you for chasing them down? Zimmerman completely instigated the confrontation.

I understand what you are saying, and to your (rhetorical?) question whether SYG may be invoked by someone following and shooting another, the answer of course is big NO. Your reasoning is in keeping with what SA Corey is going to argue, in order to exclude Zimmerman from SYG, and secure a M2 conviction. There's a challenge involved for Corey, in proving George Zimmerman chased down Martin, and "reached" him. The shooting will not do, since the relative movement of the two men is contended: O'Mara will try to show (using exact location of killing) that Martin must have walked towards Zimmerman over considerable distance, just before the altercation. (It's not ENTIRELY simple !)

edit: If you're interested in the opposite point of view, you might check out (if you haven't already) Stand Your Ground, extentively discussing initial media coverage and the defense perspective of the Trayvon Martin shooting.


orangekea

[Darrell]

What is important about this case goes way beyond the lives of Martin and Zimmerman. It explores the process of communities trying to protect themselves against criminal acts by individuals and/or gangs in growing numbers. Police can't be everywhere; so they can't be expected to protect communities from home invasions, burgularies, muggings, vandalism, physical assaults or drive by shootings. Thus communities must devise ways to protect themselves until police can come to the rescue.

The question becomes: what can communities do to protect themselves; and what exactly can they not do? In this case, what will be tested is if Zimmerman went too far. What will also be tested is the concept of what exactly makes a person someone of interest to a nightwatch security team. One thing I think all will agree with is that no nightwatch persons should be out alone. A cell phone to 911 is not a team member.

[DD2011]

Originally Posted by orangekea

I understand what you are saying, and to your (rhetorical?) question whether SYG may be invoked by someone following and shooting another, the answer of course is big NO. Your reasoning is in keeping with what SA Corey is going to argue, in order to exclude Zimmerman from SYG, and secure a M2 conviction. There's a challenge involved for Corey, in proving George Zimmerman chased down Martin, and "reached" him. The shooting will not do, since the relative movement of the two men is contended: O'Mara will try to show (using exact location of killing) that Martin must have walked towards Zimmerman over considerable distance, just before the altercation. (It's not ENTIRELY simple !)

edit: If you're interested in the opposite point of view, you might check out (if you haven't already) Stand Your Ground, extentively discussing initial media coverage and the defense perspective of the Trayvon Martin shooting.


orangekea

Seems entirely simple to me, but we tend to make it complex with proceedings and hashing out irrelevant details lol. Zimmerman fully admitted on tape that he was chasing Martin -- the shooting wouldn't have happened had he not been chasing him like he wasn't supposed to be doing in the first place. Zimmerman is clearly and simply at fault on this one no matter how complex it gets at the trial lol imo.

[DD2011]

Originally Posted by Darrell

What is important about this case goes way beyond the lives of Martin and Zimmerman. It explores the process of communities trying to protect themselves against criminal acts by individuals and/or gangs in growing numbers. Police can't be everywhere; so they can't be expected to protect communities from home invasions, burgularies, muggings, vandalism, physical assaults or drive by shootings. Thus communities must devise ways to protect themselves until police can come to the rescue.

The question becomes: what can communities do to protect themselves; and what exactly can they not do? In this case, what will be tested is if Zimmerman went too far. What will also be tested is the concept of what exactly makes a person someone of interest to a nightwatch security team. One thing I think all will agree with is that no nightwatch persons should be out alone. A cell phone to 911 is not a team member.

I agree and think there should be some sort of certified training of what is acceptable or not acceptable of a neighborhood watch person....maybe it could help.

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by DD2011

Seems entirely simple to me, but we tend to make it complex with proceedings and hashing out irrelevant details lol. Zimmerman fully admitted on tape that he was chasing Martin -- the shooting wouldn't have happened had he not been chasing him like he wasn't supposed to be doing in the first place. Zimmerman is clearly and simply at fault on this one no matter how complex it gets at the trial lol imo.

Irrelevance, DD2011? Obviously you find the evidence for the chase very much relevant (as do I!) And you have misrepresented Zimmerman's information to police dispatch, by calling it a 'full admission' he was chasing Martin, simply because the Watch Captain was instructed by police to not do this (chase), and from the cessation of banging and heavy breathing we know he ended his fast pursuit after 32 seconds, complying with police instruction.

We do not know (with proven certainty) what he did between that moment (breaking off pursuit) and the shooting (1-2 minutes later). Could be he walked back and forth between nearest streetsign and his SUV (Defense position). Could be he continued to follow at slower pace, until he killed Martin (SA Angela Corey's position). Lacking conclusive forensic evidence either way, eyewitnesses will become crucial during trial. And the question 'Was Zimmerman chasing/following Trayvon Martin just prior to the fatal altercation' will decide his freedom, or going down for M2.


orangekea


edit: I add that a hotdog prosecutor like Corey wouldn't go into such a trial UNLESS she had sumtin up her sleeve, like additional eyewitnesses contradicting Zimmerman's story!

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by DD2011

I agree and think there should be some sort of certified training of what is acceptable or not acceptable of a neighborhood watch person....maybe it could help.

I totally agree, DD. And I'm thinking of no guns on patrol !

[DD2011]

Originally Posted by orangekea

Irrelevance, DD2011? Obviously you find the evidence for the chase very much relevant (as do I!) And you have misrepresented Zimmerman's information to police dispatch, by calling it a 'full admission' he was chasing Martin, simply because the Watch Captain was instructed by police to not do this (chase), and from the cessation of banging and heavy breathing we know he ended his fast pursuit after 32 seconds, complying with police instruction.

We do not know (with proven certainty) what he did between that moment (breaking off pursuit) and the shooting (1-2 minutes later). Could be he walked back and forth between nearest streetsign and his SUV (Defense position). Could be he continued to follow at slower pace, until he killed Martin (SA Angela Corey's position). Lacking conclusive forensic evidence either way, eyewitnesses will become crucial during trial. And the question 'Was Zimmerman chasing/following Trayvon Martin just prior to the fatal altercation' will decide his freedom, or going down for M2.


orangekea


edit: I add that a hotdog prosecutor like Corey wouldn't go into such a trial UNLESS she had sumtin up her sleeve, like additional eyewitnesses contradicting Zimmerman's story!

I disagree in that you claim it is known that he complied with police instruction. Heavy breathing and banging proves nothing -- he done admitted he was chasing him. Martin was out for Skittles, it's unlikely the kid didn't turn around and start chasing Zimmerman back (yes I know, probably not provable). Your explanation is exactly what I mean by complexing the situation with irrelevancy (you do it very well, no offense by all means -- the attorneys will do exactly that during a trial and call it relevant and the courts will agree it's relevant). IMO Zimmerman is guilty of provoking that confrontation period. Had he not provoked the situation, I do have to believe that Martin would still be alive.

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by DD2011

I disagree in that you claim it is known that he complied with police instruction. Heavy breathing and banging proves nothing -- he done admitted he was chasing him. Martin was out for Skittles, it's unlikely the kid didn't turn around and start chasing Zimmerman back (yes I know, probably not provable). Your explanation is exactly what I mean by complexing the situation with irrelevancy (you do it very well, no offense by all means -- the attorneys will do exactly that during a trial and call it relevant and the courts will agree it's relevant). IMO Zimmerman is guilty of provoking that confrontation period. Had he not provoked the situation, I do have to believe that Martin would still be alive.

I respect your viewpoint of course, DD2011. However, the cessation of heavy breathing and banging sounds, after 32 seconds, during the 911 call indicate Zimmerman ended his fast (and strenuous!!) pursuit of Martin. What else? (That was a question to you .) At this point in time Martin's death was still minutes (between 1 and 2) in the future.

I agree regarding the likelyhood that Corey will explore attributing responsibility, and if legally applicable, LIABILITY/GUILT to Zimmerman's initial action of leaving his SUV with a firearm in his holster. Guy should have stayed in his car, with 20/20 hindsight.


orangekea