Well now,isnt this interesting?

[Carol Nistri]

Mysterious Changes in Ocean Salt Spur NASA Expedition - SKYE on AOL

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by Carol Nistri

Mysterious Changes in Ocean Salt Spur NASA Expedition - SKYE on AOL

It is, and I did some googling and reading, even had to check out the basics (how salt gets into our seas and oceans), and it seems these are underwhelming findings of imaginary hot air. At its heart seems to be global warming (the manmade/enthropogenic variety!) modelling, by its permanently overheated advocates.

Simply, looking for a sign of our Earth quickly heating up, they looked whether the water cycle, especially evaporation (increased by high temp) and subsequent precipitation is speeding up. They studied it by looking at ocean saltiness, which MAY be increasing (hard to say, big body of water with billions of years history! It could constitute insignificant fluctuation). If indeed saltiness is going up over recent decades, AND IF this were caused by a faster water evaporation followed by more rain, this could be an indicator our climate recently got hotter.

But I have not seen proof global seas have become saltier. (They might.)

No proof such increase in sea/oceanic saltiness was truly caused by faster water cycles (evaporation/rain).

No proof a hotter climate was caused by human activity. (It also could be normal climate fluctuation, caused by billions of years of volcanic and solar changes.)
Source


Personally, after reading up a little, the possible increase in salts in our oceans (coupled with lowering of salts in fresh water layers) could be explained by huge salt sediments released into the water by volcanism and mega-seaquakes (the recent tsunamis), plus highs in solar activity. Let's hope it will veer back before it causes a major climate change or kills off sea life. Fortunately we aren't at that threshold yet.

I'm anything but an expert. Any member who understands this stuff better?




orangekea

[ChrisPerridas]

Not me, but I'm watching the discussion.

I will add that in my profession - chemistry - it continues to be a hot topic in the Chemical and Engineering News letters. Many members refuse to accept the data as presented, though the editorial board continues to believe that climate change is completely man-made..

[Carol Nistri]

Do you believe that Chris,that climate change is manmade?

[Skeptical]

I don't think that anyone can deny that the climate in recent decades has gotten hotter. However, I am surprised that some scientists are so hell-bent on laying this completely at man's feet (or, on the flip-side, declaring it has absolutely nothing to do with human activity). I think the truth probably lies in between. Any number of mechanism may be at work here, of which man's mismanagement of the planet is only one.

S

[ChrisPerridas]

Originally Posted by Carol Nistri

Do you believe that Chris,that climate change is manmade?

I've been back and forth on this. I've looked at some data - Heaven knows I get plenty in my science magazines. You'd think with 7 billion people the world would be affected, but even so, ants and earthworms make up hundreds of times our biomass and they rework more dirt in a day than a Peabody Coal Company digger does in a hundred years.

My opinion? Right now I lean toward that we have some solar phenomenon that fluctuates and periodically causes this stuff. It isn't all people.

My issues: We only have 120 years of reliable data, and about 50 years of satellite data. Is that enough to decide? Is there global weirding - yes. Is there global warming, I don't think so.

One thing that floored me was reading through history. It is very clear that the Viking era had very warm waters around Greenland such as we are experiencing now. It is also sure that they froze their horned helmets off a few hundred years later when it got so cold people had winter parties on the Thames when it froze solid three months a year.

I still have no idea what could freeze a Mastodon into a chunk of ice in ten seconds while it was eating a grass-sandwich. I also know that spring is about two months earlier than it was during the Civil War.

There is a lot that I don't have answers.

[Antrikshaadmi]

The recent solar weather is aggravating the problem caused by CO2, once the sun stops having fits things will go back to normal. Or about as normal as they can be in Florida in my case. The ice caps surely trapped plenty of salt when they formed from sea water, they are melting and that accounts for at least some of the increase in the ocean's salinity. Somewhere along to line I think corporations are behind the apparent lack of common sense of climatological scientific studies, I refuse to believe that scientists are unable to figure out how solar storms and melting ice caps are affecting the environment. I'd rather suspect corporate owned media only reports findings that justifies taxing people for the air they breathe after water was monetized as the next big thing in making every prerequisite to life owned by corporations and being charged to live on a pay-per-view basis.

[Darrell]

Originally Posted by ChrisPerridas

I've been back and forth on this. I've looked at some data - Heaven knows I get plenty in my science magazines. You'd think with 7 billion people the world would be affected, but even so, ants and earthworms make up hundreds of times our biomass and they rework more dirt in a day than a Peabody Coal Company digger does in a hundred years.

My opinion? Right now I lean toward that we have some solar phenomenon that fluctuates and periodically causes this stuff. It isn't all people.

My issues: We only have 120 years of reliable data, and about 50 years of satellite data. Is that enough to decide? Is there global weirding - yes. Is there global warming, I don't think so.

One thing that floored me was reading through history. It is very clear that the Viking era had very warm waters around Greenland such as we are experiencing now. It is also sure that they froze their horned helmets off a few hundred years later when it got so cold people had winter parties on the Thames when it froze solid three months a year.

I still have no idea what could freeze a Mastodon into a chunk of ice in ten seconds while it was eating a grass-sandwich. I also know that spring is about two months earlier than it was during the Civil War.

There is a lot that I don't have answers.

Actually there is a 5 million year record of global temperatures published in russian literature. I'll go get the graph and put it here.



notice that the time scale runs right to left chronologically and that our current value has again crossed above the dotted line.

and here is a plot of recent time history (with the time scale going left to right per normal convention).

[Antrikshaadmi]

Solar weather is making the greenhouse effect worse, the temperature will go down when the sun calms down. I'm not stating that CO2 emissions aren't a problem, what I am stating is that it's not the only cause of "global warming" and it's not the fault of human activity alone. That's what those who want to tax the air you breathe want you to believe.



After water was monetized, the air is the next big thing to charge you for. The corporations and the governments they control want life to be a pay-per-view event.

[ChrisPerridas]

I do vaguely recall seeing those graphs. (I am at the age I forget more than I remember). The left side is an absolute reading of carbonates per milliliter, if I read it correctly. The right side uses some equation to calibrate an amount of carbonate to an amount of temperature, assuming several things, mostly that sea creatures over long evolutionary periods exude and utilize carbonates in the same manner. I'm not saying that's wrong, but it is an assumption.

The next thing that worries me is that for 2,250,000 years the temperature of the planet has been a constant +/- 2.5 C. That's pretty incredible, and you have to ask what the freak was going on between 5 MM BCE and 3 MM BCE. Woosh. & brrrr.

The second graph is a composite of numerous measurements of temperature variation. It is notable for the amount of noise - the different measurements don't correlate perfectly. The scary part is the black line, which the graph declares is from satellite data - probably the best measurements we have. Sadly we don't have a lot of data yet. Maybe 50 years. So we are not sure how to relate satellite data in 1970 to tree ring data in Colorado in 1100 or coral reefs in Australia in 50,000 BCE or medieval grape harvests in France.

Graph three shows that various greenhouse gases cause very different effects, and what isn't shown is that water vapor placed at various places in the atmosphere can make huge differences.

I should also comment on the close correlation of sunspots and weather issues, but I don't know enough about it. I wish we knew more about what the sunspots indicate as far as internal solar intensities.

CO2 has a strong effect. SO2 is far more effective. Dust is a great coolant. So the 1815 eruption of Mt Tabor caused the 1816 year without a summer. People in New England resorted to eating grass in some areas they got so desperate. Crops failed everywhere. If the British had held out one more year, they would have won the War of 1812. We probably would have had to surrender. It may also have beaten Napoleon in Russia. Nitrates can also wreak havoc. We are not sure what tens of thousands of air flights a year is doing to the water vapor in the upper atmosphere.

Lots of things to consider and contemplate.