The Honor In Murdering Girls

[dejarma]

Originally Posted by orangekea

Well, dejarma, you must be right in suggesting that standing up for children is ethical and wise in principle.

But we cannot be like a she-wolf fighting to the death for her cubs. People have rights, including those intent on killing their own child. It's what makes this place (western world) special, it is also our Achilles' Heel.

Let's say you suspect a traditional fam seeks to avenge 'dishonor' on a daughter or gay son. Immediately shelter must be given to the endangered child, preventing contact with family members. If an attempt (to murder child) has been made, the actual killer PLUS the heads of the family must be prosecuted together. Charges must reflect the organization of 'honor killings', usually with a Patriarch giving the orders.

Simply, we can't go off and kill the evildoers (or we'll end up in jail ourselves).


orangekea

Oh really!?!? If I were to see one of these religious loons attacking my 8 year old girl with a knife because 'he' feels that my daughter has dishonoured him (unknowingly of course) then said individual would be dead within 10 seconds!!!!!! Regarding Blue's post: would that be murder? To be honest I thought you were suggesting you feel it's best not to shout out your true disgust using expletives in an angry way in a public forum!?!? seems i was wrong!

f*ck political correctness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[DD2011]

Originally Posted by orangekea

Thanks for your comments, DD. And I couldn't agree more, also about the emotional element but I try to suppress this or I would start acting in an extremely unwise and unethical manner myself towards those threatening kids.

Coming up through time, from so called pre-history (= before earliest written records found), we see traditions of utterly ruthless, cruel and bizarrely sophisticated forms of violence toward fellow humans. Maybe the previous world civilization contained some bad seeds/evil inspirations.

I say (excuse the repetion!) we legislate such folk out of existence, name, shame and INCARCERATE familygroups of honor killers. It will take time, generations probably.


orangekea

It's those who expressed their emotional elements and stood up and passionately fought with their hearts and lives for what is humanely right of the victims that stopped those kinds of beliefs and actions from spreading into a common rule around the globe. Sure, we do so now more legislatively, but you can still believe many who are fighting for legislation for human causes are doing so with passion and their internal emotions which fuels their beliefs or knowledge in what is right. We have our own socially acceptable rules, where others may think it's "unwise or unethical" if you're not suppressing your emotions, but in all reality, it's human instinct to have emotion about things we fight to make right, and a learned social behavior to supress them. Of course I think there's a time and a place, but I think it would be more unwise to always keep your emotions bottled up, where stress can build in the body and make you vulnerable in health.

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by DD2011

It's those who expressed their emotional elements and stood up and passionately fought with their hearts and lives for what is humanely right of the victims that stopped those kinds of beliefs and actions from spreading into a common rule around the globe. Sure, we do so now more legislatively, but you can still believe many who are fighting for legislation for human causes are doing so with passion and their internal emotions which fuels their beliefs or knowledge in what is right. We have our own socially acceptable rules, where others may think it's "unwise or unethical" if you're not suppressing your emotions, but in all reality, it's human instinct to have emotion about things we fight to make right, and a learned social behavior to supress them. Of course I think there's a time and a place, but I think it would be more unwise to always keep your emotions bottled up, where stress can build in the body and make you vulnerable in health.

You are spot on in many ways, and I certainly wouldn't presume to tell YOU how to help vulnerable fellow humans, DD2011! (Just glad - guessing from post - that you do.)

So, yes we need that fire inside, know what's right and go for it. For me personally, I'm grateful some teachers emphasised self-discipline and control over one's emotions, because it fell to me to deal with some baddies (childharmers) close-up like, intending to try and 'kill' (=get them put in jail max time!) them legally. Going rambo on them would only have harmed me, my family, and I believe my soul.


orangekea

[lee934]

Originally Posted by Mac 5

He also does alot for charity bless him!

Talking of which I will be running the Robin Hood marathon on September 11th. I am not going to try and mug you guys for money, I've done that enough! However I'm running for a meningitis charity so if you wish to donate a few quid (or bucks) please feel free.
if you're in the area pop over and cheer us all on.

[DD2011]

Originally Posted by orangekea

You are spot on in many ways, and I certainly wouldn't presume to tell YOU how to help vulnerable fellow humans, DD2011! (Just glad - guessing from post - that you do.)

So, yes we need that fire inside, know what's right and go for it. For me personally, I'm grateful some teachers emphasised self-discipline and control over one's emotions, because it fell to me to deal with some baddies (childharmers) close-up like, intending to try and 'kill' (=get them put in jail max time!) them legally. Going rambo on them would only have harmed me, my family, and I believe my soul.


orangekea

There can be a big difference in going rambo and expressing emotions lol.

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by DD2011

There can be a big difference in going rambo and expressing emotions lol.

Yet on some gut-deep level going rambo would have FELT just right... (like dejarma describes so passionately)

[Blue Moose]

Firstly if we are going to continue to discuss honor/honour killings, consider first the meaning of honour in respect to women, honour can also mean virginity or fidelity in the case of a married women, within these cultures and societies were the majority of said killings occur.

As I discussed earlier the term or meaning of murder/unlawful killing within one cultures laws can be very different to ours, and thus may be considered to be both barbaric and distasteful to our westernised belief systems.

Within the UK there should be no reference to the term honour killing as the within the UK laws its murder clear and simple and should not have any other exclusivity. There is no such thing as honour killing as defined by our laws and thus should not be used as a defence.

However if you were living within a country and society that has said laws about honour killing, and you behave dishonourably then those laws apply to you.

Furthermore to many of these cultures our laws are seen as weak, liberal and laughable due to there being no real justice for the victim of a crime, recently there was an elderly person raped, I believe the offender got 7 years has been on bail for 12 months so will be free in the next 18 months. In another society the honour of his punishment up to and including execution is with the family of the victim.

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by Blue Moose

Firstly if we are going to continue to discuss honor/honour killings, consider first the meaning of honour in respect to women, honour can also mean virginity or fidelity in the case of a married women, within these cultures and societies were the majority of said killings occur.

Topic The Honor in Murdering Girls is female-centered, singling out a special punishment aimed at children (often young daughters) of traditional families. My focus includes these honor victims' low rights status, and utter dependence on parents/elders, creating tremendous vulnerability and potentially unfairness. Democracies bear responsibility to keep kids safe imo.

Originally Posted by Blue Moose

As I discussed earlier the term or meaning of murder/unlawful killing within one cultures laws can be very different to ours, and thus may be considered to be both barbaric and distasteful to our westernised belief systems.

So what? Newcomers, citizens with exotic background can have any culture they want, believe in any God or faith (under Freedom of Religion provision)! My point is that they have no right to exercise/act out such culture/faith with absolute freedom. If a traditional patriarch (+uncles, nephews, brothers, even mom) has his daughter put to death over 'dishonor', his traditional right is disregarded here by law, while the penalties for murder will be upheld.

Originally Posted by Blue Moose

Within the UK there should be no reference to the term honour killing as the within the UK laws its murder clear and simple and should not have any other exclusivity. There is no such thing as honour killing as defined by our laws and thus should not be used as a defence.

You are correct, not as defense. But it may be vital in the investigative phase, and to custom-fit the prosecution of (organized) perpetrators. Honor killing girls (& occasionally homosexual boys) is a special crime, needing specialized treatment by western law enforcement.

Originally Posted by Blue Moose

However if you were living within a country and society that has said laws about honour killing, and you behave dishonourably then those laws apply to you.

I basically agree, Blue Moose.

Originally Posted by Blue Moose

Furthermore to many of these cultures our laws are seen as weak, liberal and laughable due to there being no real justice for the victim of a crime, recently there was an elderly person raped, I believe the offender got 7 years has been on bail for 12 months so will be free in the next 18 months. In another society the honour of his punishment up to and including execution is with the family of the victim.

Yes, we must get our house in order. (Actually democracies work to improve their respective justice systems, amending and creating new law, but at an excruciatingly slow pace.)

But two wrongs do not make a right. And abandoning young people within our borders to a cruel and evil tradition (murder of one's child over family-dishonor) is very wrong I believe.


orangekea

[Blue Moose]

I'm again tempted to reply, but fear that if I continue to adopt the role of devils advocate within this highly emotive subject, I fear that it could be perceived as being, that I somehow condone what horrendous crimes have been committed in the name of honour, not just to children but to those individuals who are the most vulnerable within these societies.

My effort to play devils advocate was to continue the debate and to (vain) attempt to encourage people to first consider the economic, religious and social factors to which some of the individuals who may have to commit these horrendous deeds in order to survive within their own culture and society.

That in no way makes it 'right' and/or 'just' but sometimes we in the west can be very critical of another religion, society and culture without first considering other factors, there are many customs within my own country which repulse and alienate many Moslem's, Sikhs, Hindu's and other eastern type religious groups from fully integrating within our communities and to thus preventing a celebration of diversity.

So I hope this explanation gives my fellow members some insight into my rationales and arguments posted

[DD2011]

Nope blue, doesn't do it for me. Wrong is wrong period (inhumanity is wrong period). I personally would rather die fighting than to surrender to doing horrendous things because it's what a psycho community might support or allow you to survive doing, and I certainly wouldn't agree that in the name of diversity people should be allowed to do horrendous acts against humanity. They're all whack nut jobs imo who see doing horrendous things as being what's right, and again, personally I'd rather fight against those beliefs even if it meant that the psychos would hunt me down and kill me because they're the enforcers and rulers of those beliefs. Sorry, I wouldn't do horrendous things or think they're excusable for anyone else to do because that's how that culture or society has become or feel they have the right to be.