Quran Burning: There Be Idiots Here

[dr wu23]

Originally Posted by Wilhelm

Then that's exactly what we should do - nothing much.

Preferably without the 'much' part.

Navy Seals dropped into a nuclear weapons possessing country in the dead of night without running it by anyone, and killed bin Laden, based on intel gathered by the CIA.

That's the sort of thing we should do, and only when we need to, such as with bin Laden. No wars, no troops, no bombings. There are better ways to get the job done.

Sadly none of that, doing nothing, will change the fundamentalist attitudes of Islam and the hard core side. But I'm just glad I'll be dead before the shite really hits the fan.

[Wilhelm]

It will do more to change their attitudes for the better than bombing them ever will, so doing nothing equals a net gain.

[Skeptical]

Nations don't need to declare war on the US anymore. They have plenty of surrogates they can pay to do the job and they get to retain plausible deniability.

For example, why would Iran want to declare war on the US? That would make them a target. Instead, why not arm and finance the Al Qaidas of the world? It brings your enemy pain and causes them to waste time, money and resources - all without running the risk of a cruise missile through your bathroom window.

S

[Wilhelm]

Originally Posted by Skeptical

Nations don't need to declare war on the US anymore. They have plenty of surrogates they can pay to do the job and they get to retain plausible deniability.

For example, why would Iran want to declare war on the US? That would make them a target. Instead, why not arm and finance the Al Qaidas of the world? It brings your enemy pain and causes them to waste time, money and resources - all without running the risk of a cruise missile through your bathroom window.

S

Pretending to know which country is responsible without the proper intel is why a gang of Saudi's, ostensibly funded by another Saudi, attacked America on 9/11, and we sent our military to Afghanistan, Iraq, Yemen, etc... Everywhere except Saudi Arabia, fancy that.

And, as it turned out, out favorite Saudi construction heir turned out to be hiding out with our "allies" - in a country which has nuclear weapons.

Besides nuclear weapons, you know the difference between Pakistan and Iran? Israel doesn't have a weird hatred for Pakistan.

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by Wilhelm

Then that's exactly what we should do - nothing much.

Preferably without the 'much' part.

Navy Seals dropped into a nuclear weapons possessing country in the dead of night without running it by anyone, and killed bin Laden, based on intel gathered by the CIA.

That's the sort of thing we should do, and only when we need to, such as with bin Laden. No wars, no troops, no bombings. There are better ways to get the job done.

"Nothing" to the level of satisfaction of the Islamist believers could be a surprisingly tall order. First, the SEAL team may have killed Osama in a virtually surgical manner, but Al Qaeda counts it as an assassination of a leader, for which they may retaliate in kind (or by exacting a general revenge through terror).

Let's get extréémely theoretical, and say that the United States (plus United Nations) just gets out of Afghanistan. This ends the defilement of the land by unbelievers, however the many drone killings on Taliban terrorists (their holy warriors) still must be avenged.

What about US bases, again defiling Muslim ground, in Arab oil states, Saudi Arabia? This requires continuous jihad against America and Americans.

And the Israelis are seen as oppressors of the Palestian people, occupiers of Palestine and Jerusalem, also obligating relentless jihad by Allah's faithful.

I believe Israel has bombed Syrian atomic facilities in the past, and is contemplating striking them now inside Iran. All are acts of war, and are grounds for these countries to somehow retaliate, for instance by sponsoring terrorists.

It is hard, practically IMPOSSIBLE to reach Nothing.


orangekea

[dr wu23]

Originally Posted by Wilhelm

It will do more to change their attitudes for the better than bombing them ever will, so doing nothing equals a net gain.

Who's promoting bombing?......you seem to have bombing on the brain.
The Islamic fundies aren't going away...bombs or not, and backing off will not change them one iota.

[orangekea]

Originally Posted by Darrell

I find it interesting how some of us view the present world. It's as if a rape has occured and now some blame the victim for looking too sexy.

To me, hate and intolerance are the criminals; and those who value love and diversity are the victims. I think that some of those among us know the difference; yet sadly others do not.

Now I'd be obliged if you could point out exactly who you have in mind here sayin' "some", "those" and "others" , Darrell. Will save me the trouble of apologizing again for misunderstanding your meaning!

But going by your Reply # 11 you place the intolerance with the Islamists, extremists and current batch of opportunistic hate-mongers among the Taliban.

An important nuance here is that the Quran burning incident apparently was a mistake: no 'valuing of love and diversity' on the Bragram soldiers' minds. Probably they just did their job, discovering detainees were misusing copies of the Quran kindly provided by the Americans, by writing secret/coded communications in them, then exchanging the book with a fellow-detainee. Properly put a stop to it, confiscated these Qurans, which were now both illegal/extremist communication AND corrupted/desecrated by the Muslim prisoners themselves!! Throwing them out was stupid, devoid of virtuous or offensive intent, and the base simply ought to have had them incinerated discretely indoors.

Still believe it an idiotic and fateful act.

Let's examine the traditional believers' outrage and 6(?) murders of US personnel. Imo they consider the NATO/ISAF coalition unbeliever-occupiers of Muslim land anyhow, killers of Muslim brothers, worthy of death. More grist for the mill to "Death To America" hate-mongers, is all. The outrage over the desecration of holy books was real though, and it is a punishable crime under Quranic laws.

How to fairly apportion blame/responsibility for this dreadful incident and subsequent retaliations?

Obviously the US must take ownership for coming to Afghanistan! (That's how you get to meet lots and lots of Afghans, including 'intolerant' ones !!)

The violence by the rioters constitutes breaking Afghan Law: throwing stones at American facilities and Afghan Police, any use of firearms, grenades, explosives causing damage and injuries are crimes.

The six killings/assassinations of US soldiers are terrorist acts, and if committed by Afghan soldiers in uniform: Treason.

Darrell, there a surprising final suspect. The One True God Allah himself, and the words of the Quran! The Quran orders killing unbelievers (non-muslims), invalidates any friendship/alliance with unbelievers, and makes Quranic desecration a punishable offence. Islamic intolerance is ordered by God.


orangekea

[Darrell]

I find myself somewhat agreeing with wilhelm. I think it's time to hit the restart button and forget/forgive the past. Let OBL's death set an arbitrary boundary between then and now.

BUT ...
Let us also be quick to respond to wrongs done to us directly (going forward), no matter by whom. And let us be only one of many who act in concert as a united planet against those who perpetrate criminal actions against others less able to defend themselves.

The name of the game is love. Diversity of ideas is a virtue, not a disease. The world needs to send this message with every action it takes; and it needs to make life less pleasant for those who try to enforce their hatefulness and intolerance on others. If some folks wish to continue in their childish ways, perhaps we should start treating them as children. A little time spent in the naughty corner might effect an eventual cure. Who knows? Maybe they can be embarassed into greater maturity?

[Darrell]

Originally Posted by orangekea

Now I'd be obliged if you could point out exactly who you have in mind here sayin' "some", "those" and "others" , Darrell. Will save me the trouble of apologizing again for misunderstanding your meaning!

But going by your Reply # 11 you place the intolerance with the Islamists, extremists and current batch of opportunistic hate-mongers among the Taliban.

An important nuance here is that the Quran burning incident apparently was a mistake: no 'valuing of love and diversity' on the Bragram soldiers' minds. Probably they just did their job, discovering detainees were misusing copies of the Quran kindly provided by the Americans, by writing secret/coded communications in them, then exchanging the book with a fellow-detainee. Properly put a stop to it, confiscated these Qurans, which were now both illegal/extremist communication AND corrupted/desecrated by the Muslim prisoners themselves!! Throwing them out was stupid, devoid of virtuous or offensive intent, and the base simply ought to have had them incinerated discretely indoors.

Still believe it an idiotic and fateful act.

Let's examine the traditional believers' outrage and 6(?) murders of US personnel. Imo they consider the NATO/ISAF coalition unbeliever-occupiers of Muslim land anyhow, killers of Muslim brothers, worthy of death. More grist for the mill to "Death To America" hate-mongers, is all. The outrage over the desecration of holy books was real though, and it is a punishable crime under Quranic laws.

How to fairly apportion blame/responsibility for this dreadful incident and subsequent retaliations?

Obviously the US must take ownership for coming to Afghanistan! (That's how you get to meet lots and lots of Afghans, including 'intolerant' ones !!)

The violence by the rioters constitutes breaking Afghan Law: throwing stones at American facilities and Afghan Police, any use of firearms, grenades, explosives causing damage and injuries are crimes.

The six killings/assassinations of US soldiers are terrorist acts, and if committed by Afghan soldiers in uniform: Treason.

Darrell, there a surprising final suspect. The One True God Allah himself, and the words of the Quran! The Quran orders killing unbelievers (non-muslims), invalidates any friendship/alliance with unbelievers, and makes Quranic desecration a punishable offence. Islamic intolerance is ordered by God.


orangekea

orange:

Here is the point many miss: as long as the US is an occupier of Afghanistan, US laws prevail -- not Islamic laws. Thus the afghans commited a crime against our soldiers which should be punishable in kind; AND, we committed NO CRIME in burning copies of the quran on grounds occupied by us. The fact that we even recognize Islamic law in occupied territory is ridiculous.

[Wilhelm]

Originally Posted by dr wu23

Who's promoting bombing?......you seem to have bombing on the brain.
The Islamic fundies aren't going away...bombs or not, and backing off will not change them one iota.

Of course it will. They don't like the West because of the questionable actions of our Governments; religion is just the excuse. Or, as I pointed out, they'd have plenty of infidels to kill in their own countries if that were their main concern.