The "Copper Medic" Case

[ChrisPerridas]

"The challenge" by Dr Wu.

Quote: Originally Posted by dr wu23
Did you read both books?
Then by all means explain Copper Medic and Happy Camp to me ...deconstruct them to posit a prosaic answer. // I'd love to hear one.

"The reply".

I am working on "Copper Medic". Your man, Vallee, apparently was not the first on the scene. Bless Da Google, and the Internet, I was able to track down the original MUFON report. Not ready to discuss, though I did find some interesting prosaic tangents that may help explain some of it.

For anyone who wants to read about the two reports - Vallee and MUFON - I scanned them and put them here:

UFO Evolution - ChrisPerridas's Album: Copper Medic

If anyone finds other information on this, please share. There was an alleged newspaper report about this, but I can't locate it. And possibly a contemporary report to a local call-in radio show. The Chapin's set dynamite traps for the UFOs that law enforcement asked them to deactivate. Likely those reports are long ago destroyed.

I could find no UFO threads on this subject on other boards, but maybe one of you can.

Hopefully this will be a fun discussion.

[OzyMandias]

ufo - UFOS at close sight: URECAT-000890 - January 14, 1978, Redding, California, USA, Jane Chapin

[ChrisPerridas]

This is great, but the authors seem to all derive their details from Jacques Vallee's primary source, his book. Thank you.

[dr wu23]

Originally Posted by ChrisPerridas

"The challenge" by Dr Wu.

Quote: Originally Posted by dr wu23
Did you read both books?
Then by all means explain Copper Medic and Happy Camp to me ...deconstruct them to posit a prosaic answer. // I'd love to hear one.

"The reply".

I am working on "Copper Medic". Your man, Vallee, apparently was not the first on the scene. Bless Da Google, and the Internet, I was able to track down the original MUFON report. Not ready to discuss, though I did find some interesting prosaic tangents that may help explain some of it.

For anyone who wants to read about the two reports - Vallee and MUFON - I scanned them and put them here:

UFO Evolution - ChrisPerridas's Album: Copper Medic

If anyone finds other information on this, please share. There was an alleged newspaper report about this, but I can't locate it. And possibly a contemporary report to a local call-in radio show. The Chapin's set dynamite traps for the UFOs that law enforcement asked them to deactivate. Likely those reports are long ago destroyed.

I could find no UFO threads on this subject on other boards, but maybe one of you can.

Hopefully this will be a fun discussion.

Dr Vallee chose those 2 cases (Happy Camp the other..) to investigate because they had not had a lot of public exposure and had all the elements involved of a high strangeness episode. He has not spent any serious time on cases that have become public knowledge to the point of fame since they have been tainted with so many other ideas and biases that the truth of the actual data is no longer easy to come by.

[ChrisPerridas]

I've been swamped at work and at night. I did spend some time looking into thorium, neodymium, any newspaper links, radio links, blog links, genealogical links, and gold mine claims. Thorium produces significant radon gas, and is often found near gold mines. Neodymium is primarily used to tint the green out of iron contaminate glass. Is it still used in optical lenses, Dr Wu? I know uranium used to be used in false teeth and capped teeth as it fluoresces under black light - a real issue back int eh 60s because women under black lights seemed to have no teeth, but I never heard that neodymium was used for this. But I don't think the sintered glass was dental material.

I have a lot more detail to review before I can begin posting about this.

[dr wu23]

Originally Posted by ChrisPerridas

I've been swamped at work and at night. I did spend some time looking into thorium, neodymium, any newspaper links, radio links, blog links, genealogical links, and gold mine claims. Thorium produces significant radon gas, and is often found near gold mines. Neodymium is primarily used to tint the green out of iron contaminate glass. Is it still used in optical lenses, Dr Wu? I know uranium used to be used in false teeth and capped teeth as it fluoresces under black light - a real issue back int eh 60s because women under black lights seemed to have no teeth, but I never heard that neodymium was used for this. But I don't think the sintered glass was dental material.

I have a lot more detail to review before I can begin posting about this.

Take your time...btw.....do you think Vallee didn't investigate all these angles?

[ChrisPerridas]

I am glad you asked. I know this is trivial, but you and I were not there, so we only know what we can find in print. Disagree and call me on any bias you see, but here is my first run through of the first incident combining the elements of both stories. They do differ in a few significant ways, mainly did they or did they not feel heat on the first esoteric experience? This is a freaking lot of work, but well worth it. I am still flat out slammed, but I want to post something before the weekend.

I am working from the references I previously posted in my ufoevolution albums. I have not seen any additional data. This is a little odd, as Vallee made the case pretty famous in 1990 - 23 years ago.

I will state one bias up front. I'm going into this 100% not believing they saw an ETH, EDH, or ghosts, or anything paranormal or supernatural. I actually believe that is the fairest thing to do, because I only want to review the scientific and folklore elements. I am sure that both Cerny and Vallee both came to this case with the same principle. Plus I am sure many will jump in and give a counter-point hypothesis for something more esoteric when the time comes.

Dr Wu, I am not convinced that Cerney and Vallee worked on this case together. What do you think? Can you check your hard copy book and see if there are any references in Vallee to the MUFON report, as I can see he quoted it verbatim in many insistences, but I do not see a footnote in my online copy.

A few initial observations. There seems to be some matrixing of possible independent events. The story must have leaked out on a radio call in show, now lost. There was likely a local newspaper report, now lost. MUFON checked it out, but it was years after the fact.

_____

Below if something is confirmed by the MUFON report, it is marked (M), and if by Vallee (it is marked (V).

The Chapins, at 10 AM (M) or 10:30 AM (V) local time, 30 October 1969 (M,V) had a unique esoteric experience that included killing a large (M) rattlesnake (M,V) in the road (M) by hitting it with a shovel (M), burying the head in a local ritual (M,V), placing a stone over the grave (V), Jane attempting to take photos of the carcass (M, V), they saw something behind tall grass (M,V), and among the trees (V), sixty feet away (M). This area is a flattened area of mine tailings, i.e.,loose debris. (M)

Jane thought it was a trailer (V), noted it was oval (V) or egg-shaped (M), and the size of a VW Beetle {car} (M, V), and cream colored (M, V). Clinton thought it was gray (M, V). The object lifted up (M, V), paused (V), then disappeared at great speed (M, V). It raced up the canyon for about 700 feet (M), then zoomed upwards at about a 60 degree angle (M) and gone in 3 seconds (M). The object was half-egg-shaped (M), no lights (M), no windows (M), no protrusions (M). It never emitted a sound (M). Jane had her camera, but took no pictures (M) as she was stunned.

An oval depression was noted (M, V), perceived to be smaller than the object (V) about 10 feet across (M), shallow about 2 inches (M), and discolored (M). They had felt heat (M), and felt the ground which was cool (M). Near the impression, they found a strange pile of conical shaped (M) sand (M, V) about ten inches at the base (M). They scooped it immediately into a fruit jar (M) and kept it (M, V). Later, Jane refused to touch the sand anymore (M).

Two days later (M) they found a piece of metal (M, V) a few inches across – haf the size of a man's fist (M) weighing about a pound (M) and had burn marks (M). The metal was not there on the day of the first esoteric event (M). They stored the metal in a shed next to their trailer (V) for an unknown reason. Jane had no fear of holding the stone (M).

[dr wu23]

Originally Posted by ChrisPerridas

I am glad you asked. I know this is trivial, but you and I were not there, so we only know what we can find in print. Disagree and call me on any bias you see, but here is my first run through of the first incident combining the elements of both stories. They do differ in a few significant ways, mainly did they or did they not feel heat on the first esoteric experience? This is a freaking lot of work, but well worth it. I am still flat out slammed, but I want to post something before the weekend.

I am working from the references I previously posted in my ufoevolution albums. I have not seen any additional data. This is a little odd, as Vallee made the case pretty famous in 1990 - 23 years ago.

I will state one bias up front. I'm going into this 100% not believing they saw an ETH, EDH, or ghosts, or anything paranormal or supernatural. I actually believe that is the fairest thing to do, because I only want to review the scientific and folklore elements. I am sure that both Cerny and Vallee both came to this case with the same principle. Plus I am sure many will jump in and give a counter-point hypothesis for something more esoteric when the time comes.

Dr Wu, I am not convinced that Cerney and Vallee worked on this case together. What do you think? Can you check your hard copy book and see if there are any references in Vallee to the MUFON report, as I can see he quoted it verbatim in many insistences, but I do not see a footnote in my online copy.

A few initial observations. There seems to be some matrixing of possible independent events. The story must have leaked out on a radio call in show, now lost. There was likely a local newspaper report, now lost. MUFON checked it out, but it was years after the fact.

_____

I think going into it biased that it's not a 'real event' is not good science....period. Therefore all your conlcusions will be suspect due to that bias and tainted. The best position is to take none at all and just look at the evidence and go where it leads....difficult in these strange cases.
I'm convinced that Dr Vallee always looks for a prosaic answer first in these cases so as not to waste his time and he has said as much in his books. So if he (an experienced field investigator for over 45 years) couldn't find one he liked then imho I doubt that your's will be any better since he actually went there and interviewed the witnesses as well as examine the area. But I definitely want to hear your thoughts from a material reductionist deconstruction pov. If nothing else it can give us insights on how to look at these weird cases and how a firm skeptic looks at them.

[ChrisPerridas]

I am not a "firm skeptic", but I am trying to act as one. I read some more, and yes, Vallee was in direct conflict, and did not like the MUFON researchers. It is in his text. I am sure you will keep me on the straight and narrow as we continue to discuss this - as will others.

Here is a composite of the "sand analysis". Vallee dismissed the metal rock as anything that could be esoteric, but I'll do a composite of that analysis later in my posts. My take of the sand is that (A) it was just a blend of sandy stuff collected by Jane, (B) even if it were of exotic and alien material, it was so man-handled as to be of little use in understanding the alien "landing". One MUFON-connected scientist was a little impressed the rest not so much.

I am still trying to flag my biases and opinions, but jump in and discuss anything.

_____

The "sand".

Below, my comments of significance are marked (CP).

Again, we have two parallel reports of the examination of the sand by a few different scientific agencies. In many instances, it seems that Vallee is following the MUFON report (CP), but we have an intriguing report from MUFON that "…the information and analysis reports were shared during the overall investigation by several local scientists and other investigators." (M) Cerney also reports that "the Chapin's said they were visited by some scientists in conjunction with their UFO experience and the mineral specimens examined as well." (M). Cerney feels this was conspiratorial (CP), however, it may very well coincide with Valleee's independent and clandestine investigation, unrevealed until 1990 (CP).

The geology of the area was detailed (M) as near a creek (M) about 8 feet wide (M), and tailings {debris, basted rock remains, gravel} that were gray, beige (M) and made of gravel, dirt, and very little sand-like particles (M). The stream was filled with rocky material (M), and it was an active "placer" mine (M). A shallow tunnel about 4 feet into the rock was the only tunnel (M). The mine had 5 veins of gold (V) and produced some iron ore (V), and was named "Mary Hazel" (V). Vallee's geological survey turned up that the "French Gulch" (V) area was in the Klamath mountains (V) made of what is known as the Bragdon formation (V), and originally prospected by French miners in 1849 (V), and from 1900 to 1914 it produced large quantities of gold (V) in a base of pyrite (V), galena (V), sphalerite (V), arsenopyrite (V), chalcopyrite (V), sheelite (V), slate (V), shale (V), siltstone (V).

Dr. Edward Zeller of the Radiation Physics Lab at the University of Kansas Space Technology Center (M, V) examined the sand.

The "unusual greenish glass" (M) was analyzed using an x-ray EDAX (nuclear diodes energy dispersive analyzer) giving results: mostly silicon (M, V), potassium (M, V), chlorine (M, V), titanium (M, V), iron, and neodymium (M), the latter of which will be discussed below. The sand was considered purer than ordinary glass (M), not natural (V), and perhaps made in "a vacuum" (M), or "outer space" (M). The energy used (sintering, melting) was very great (M), very brief (M), and not meteoric (M). The sand contained the usual amount of quartz fragments (M, V), feldspar (M, V), pyrite (M, V), and magnetite(M, V), silt stone (M), sulphide (M, V), and some volcanic components (M) {the mine was partially volcanic (CP)}, and organic components (V). It had no mica (M). It contained gold flecks (M, V). It had white sintered silicate adhering to green glass particles (M, V). The main bulk of the glass was pale green. (M, V).

Valle states that Dr. Richard Haines submitted the glass sand to a NASA scientist who sued an X-ray EDAX instrument (V). This contradicts the description of Cerney (M) as to the chain of custody. However, for these purposes it does not matter who is right, since the proper protocols were likely observed (CP). It is just a question as to who was right.

Dr. Vallee sent samples to the mineralogy/crystallography laboratory at Paris University (V). These scientists found sodium (V), silicium {a form of complex silicon} (V), potassium (V), and titanium (V). No iron (V). No chlorine (V). And they stated "nothing extraordinary", though likely in French (CP).

Though Vallee says (page 186) "the description did not account for the sand" (V), there is evidence that some contaminates of the environment came from the native soil – gold, pyrite, and so forth (CP).

Vallee did take native material and took it to geologists. The U. S. Geological Survey at Menlo Park said "the problem with your sand is that it is not sand" (V). He meant (CP) it was not beach sand, not alluvial sand, or stream sand, or mine tailing sand. (V). In front of Vallee he picked apart the grains on a piece of paper identifying quickly siltstone (V), volcanic matter (V), sulphide rock (V), green crystals (V), feldspar (V), porcelain (V), pyrite (V), and no quartz (V) and no mica (V). The key was they were angular shaped and not rounded, showing that they were not exposed to water tumbling (CP). "The components are common, but don't belong together…" (V, page 186). It was a mixture of natural and man-made items: A blend (CP). "It is as if somebody had taken minerals … and ground them together…". This is reminiscent of a ball mill tumbler (CP) used in lapidaries or jewelry making (CP). "As for the glass, it does lok like it was produced by a sudden burst of heat, but that could occur in a variety of natural ways" (V).

The organic material was likely due to contamination from Jane's trailer (V), as she accidentally overturned the sand and then gathered some up which contained organics including possibly anything between "bread crumbs and chocolate chip cookies" (V).

[ChrisPerridas]

The "metal rock".

Dr. Richard Haines in Los Altos, California ran the metal test, (M) as well as an anonymous laboratory (M).

Analysis one of the metal contained mostly copper (M, V), tin (M, V), iron (M), chrome/chromium (M, V), silver (M), thorium (M) and silicon (M). Analysis two of the metal showed no thorium (M). This would be classified as "brass" (M), a eutectic blend of copper and tin (CP). Cerney stated "these minerals are alien to the Chapin camp…", which is very untrue (CP). It is highly likely in the 1960's that brass items were used at the mine. In addition, if thorium was present, it tends to be found in high sulphide rock of gold mines. Its by-product is radon gas. (CP). Vallee clarifies this, "…the Mary hazel mine produces gold and iron, but no copper…" (V).

Chips of the metal were analyzed by a "skilled scientist in the metallurgical field using sophisticated laboratory analysis equipment and an electron microscope" (M). Samples of the metal were sent some years ago to the Division of Mines in Golden, Colorado, Mile Rambaugh Labs in Sacramento, the state mineralogist in San Francisco, Nevada State University Geology Department, and Griffith Observatory in Los Angeles. The Chapins were not satisfied by the answers they got. (M) The drilling process indicated that the brass was very hard and brittle (M). It appeared to have been dipped in plating solution and the exterior was dark (M, V). Vallee described it, "the outside was a dull, silver-gray, the inside a shiny gold color" (V).

Many brass textbooks are available online. There are any numbers of commercial brass with added trace elements which add many valuable properties depending on the mechanical requirements and desired appearance. There was even a thorium containing brass listed. (CP). Sometimes silver is added to brass for bell manufacture, as the silver adds resonance. (CP).

Vallee felt the metal was a non-issue, "In other words, the sample was a fairly ordinary alloy that could have come into existence in a variety of natural ways." (V, page 187).